Psychotherapy and Applied Psychology: Conversations with research experts about mental health and psychotherapy for those interested in research, practice, and training

Choosing a Graduate Program in Counselling or Clinical Psychology: What You Need to Know

• Season 2 • Episode 9

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Due to popular demand, this weeks episode is a deep dive into what you should consider when deciding which graduate programs in counseling or clinical psychology to apply to.

Dan is joined by Amie Orsetti, a graduate student from the University of British Columbia. Amie and Dan discuss the nuances of choosing between clinical and counselling psychology programs, the importance of understanding program differences, and the impact of geographical restrictions on application decisions. They delve into the distinctions between PhD and PsyD programs, the significance of accreditation, and strategies for researching graduate programs effectively, and the importance of applying to multiple programs.

Useful Resources:

Insider's Guide to Graduate Programs in Clinical and Counseling Psychology
Canadian Accredited Programs 
American Accredited Programs 

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[Music] Broadcasting from the most beautiful city in the world, I'm your host, Dr. Dan Cox, a professor of counseling psychology at the University of British Columbia. Welcome to episode number 25 of Psychotherapy and Applied Psychology, where we dive deep with the world's leading applied psychology researchers to uncover practical insights, pull back the curtain, and hopefully have some fun along the way. If you didn't already know, you can check us out on YouTube. Just tap the link in the show notes, and while you're there, be sure to hit the like and subscribe button. Hitting those buttons on YouTube and subscribing to the show on your podcast app keeps you in the loop and helps others find us too. This week and next week's episodes are a little bit different. I've gotten several requests to make an episode about applying to graduate school. Rather than just me talking, I've invited one of my graduate students, Amy, or Sety to join me. So this week's episode is a conversation between Amy and me about how to decide which graduate programs to apply to. So while this episode is about deciding which programs to apply to, our next episode is about what you can do to make your application as strong as possible. And if you have any questions or want us to cover any topics about applying to graduate school or deciding on graduate school that we didn't, please let me know. Also, if you're listening to this and you disagree with anything we say, also, please let me know. In this conversation we discuss clinical versus counseling psychology, PhD versus society, accredited versus non-accredited, what to do when you're geographically restricted, how to learn about programs beyond their websites, what to consider if you're thinking about going into a researcher academic career, and much, much more. This episode starts with Amy and me talking about deciding between clinical and counseling psychology. So without further ado. Okay, so I, yeah, I applied to only one clinical psych program, but I was torn between the two. I still think that I would like clinical psych. But I'm more so wanted to do the counseling. Why, like what was your, what was your thinking about like what the differences were? One reason that I think I'm really drawn to clinical is that there's a lot of structure in the idea of diagnosing, and I'm a structured person. So I really liked the idea of having a manual that you could use to kind of follow is almost like a guideline rulebook type of thing. But ironically, one of the things I don't like about clinical is that it's so pathologizing that it focuses more on disorders, whereas I'm much more drawn to kind of the emotional, social, relational aspects of actually working with people. So I, yeah, I ended up applying to both, but was very, very happy to land in counseling, because I think the, the, the draw for clinical was almost a safety piece for me. The safety of having some comfortable. Yeah, the idea of having like this book that gives you symptoms and there's a number of symptoms. And if you have them, yes, and if you don't know, I think there was a bit of a feeling like that took some pressure off of me. But I'm very happy with where I landed. So I love your answer or your thinking because I think it like represents a lot of ways that applicants will think about or often think about these things. And over time, I've sort of, I've learned that it's. I always sort of hate the question of like what's the difference between the two. And I've even like talked to colleagues about this or people, you know, because I'm in counseling psychology, but talked to my clinical psychology, brothers and sisters, faculty members, and it's always, we're always sort of like, you know, once you're in the real world for a while, it's like, I don't know what the differences are. So this is what I always sort of suggest, which is one, look at the program, rather than the category it falls in. So one of my friends who she went to, I didn't know her till much later, who she went to a graduate program, did it got her PhD in clinical psychology. And she learned like nothing about the DSM. And where in my program, I think it was relatively, whether you went to a clinical counseling program, my program would probably look like the typical where, you know, we had a class that was primarily focused around the DSM and diagnosing and the DSM and the diagnostic categories came up frequently. There were criticisms and critiques of the DSM, which I certainly, and people have listened to the podcast will know that I do have many critiques of the DSM. But it was just something you learned and it was part of the process and what we did. So I use that anecdote as an example of some of the perceptions that we have about the differences between the two. And I hold up when you actually like test them versus reality. So I always say to look at the programs and then sort of go from there, rather than what category that it's in. Now the one, I'll make one caveat to that, which is there are, what do you want to do and where do you want to do it? Now you might not know the answer to that question. In which case, whatever. But if you do, so, you know, I've had friends and colleagues over the years who are like, I want to do this at this place and like they are really clear on what they want to do. So if you are that clear on what you want to do and where you want to do it. Go, you know, see what the people there, see what their backgrounds are in and see if there's variability or not. There are some organizations and not whole organizations, but like this counseling center, this unit of this hospital, what we're really they. They almost only look at people from this specific background, you know, so there are, there are some of those scattered there are two plentiful, but there are some of those scattered. So, so if you really know, go check and see if that place is flexible or if they're kind of in this dichotomous thinking of we only take clinical or we only take counseling. That's sort of the only caveat that I give around that. I think that's really good advice, kind of to work backwards to where you want to be. Like I think that's a really good way to approach it. Yeah, and so let's sort of let's sort of riff on this a little bit, which when you're think when folks are thinking about. For people who really do know, I want to work, you know, I want to do this thing in this place and this place is really important because you'll find that the norms very depending on where you are. Right. So part of that has to do with like the laws and the the licenseers licenseers or registrations and that sort of thing. And sometimes it's just like how it's always been there. And those things change over time, of course. And place is important. So if you're like I want to work in this geographical area. Great. Fine. So you want to learn them. Then what sort of the norms the traditions are in those spaces when you're deciding on the type of program. And so that is above and beyond just clinical versus counseling. It's also like particularly if you're geographically restricted. You want to open up as many possibilities as you can. So here's another example. I had a someone I went to graduate school with. She did her her masters in counseling psychology. And after she graduated, I remember talking to her and she said, you know, if I did do it over again, I would have gotten my MSW. My master's is social work because if I because of where we were living or where she was living. Just what the what the norms with the regulations where she could have done the stuff that she could have done with the counseling psychology counseling psychology degree. And more if she had her MSW. So that's also something to consider if you're if you know what you want to do and where you want to work. To go and figure out like. Is you know what clinical or counseling, but also like what else. And if you are geographically restricted because many of the programs are very competitive. So you want to sort of open up the possibilities. I you know, I often give the example of social work, but there are lots of other disciplines where people are doing psychotherapy and assessment, you know, other sorts of psychological or psychiatric sorts of things without having a degree in. You know, psychology per se right. Yeah, I know a couple of people actually who switched they were thinking about applying to a master's in counseling and they switched to an MSW. Just because of how competitive it is. And they figure I can do pretty much the same thing pretty much exactly what I want to do, but I'll get in faster. Yeah, totally. And I think it's really reasonable totally. Yeah, they're competitive programs. Yeah, they're very competitive program or often often, you know, and it's it's there's I think that I experienced when I talk to people who are going to be applying a lot of psychological resistance to having to increasing their flexibility. You know, I never sort of got this advice from the front end, but I imagine if I did, I would also have some resistance. I would have had some resistance. But I think that it's a little self defeating and it's not to say that you will, but it's worth, you know, this is such a big commitment. It's worth spending a few hours exploring totally. Yeah, at least looking into it. Yeah, totally. And there's a lot of good social work programs that are around here too. So if you can apply even to both and increase your chances of getting it then. Yeah. Yeah. So when you were applying to programs, what were some of the things that you were thinking about in terms of decision making, like should I apply to this program or not? So thinking about those, you probably had a handful of programs that are like, yes, great. I'm definitely going to apply here. But then you maybe had some like borderline programs that's like, oh, maybe, maybe not. What did you use to decide, am I going to apply or am I not going to apply to this particular program? I was, like you said, geographically restricted. So my partner and I own a house. So we were, we had to do the discussion of, could we move, would we move? And we decided for my first round of applications, we would keep it local and then kind of that didn't fly. Then we'd figure out where we'd go from there. So geography was a big part in where I applied to for my first round. But then within those programs, because I applied to the research master of arts, supervisor was my next top thing. So I spent, I had a spreadsheet and I spent, you know, a lot of time going through the programs I was interested in and kind of looking through different supervisors, their interests, their research, and kind of trying to see which ones were kind of like top choices. And then once I had done that, I went through and looked at like the program requirements and kind of looked to see if there's anything like there was one university that wanted like 3000 hours of helping experience. And so that one came off my list. I was like, you know what, for my first round, I'm not going to have that. So I'm just going to cross that one out. So just kind of going through those different requirements that they had in seeing what I thought I could reasonably apply to and how to decency shot at and what I just didn't want to spend my time on. So because you're geographically restricted, it was basically like all the ones that fit your reasonable criteria and then. And you were met the minimum threshold you applied to. Yeah, yeah. So I think that that's really smart. What I always tell folks like the geographical restriction thing is something to consider, you know, put that right on the front burner that's super important. And if you are geographically restricted to then be very flexible, like you have to then figure out how can I be flexible on other parameters to increase the number of programs that I can apply for. Yeah. So that's that's so what one of the things I often talk with potential applicants about is. They'll say like, oh yeah, and then there's this program, what it seems like is okay, but I'm not really, you know, I'm not going to apply for reason X or reason Y. And obviously there is like, you know, you can only apply to so many programs. You shouldn't apply to 42 programs, you know, obviously. There's no magic number, but, you know, I don't know what the numbers are, but, you know, I think that when I applied originally I applied. I don't even remember anymore, so round 10 was around 10. So what, but what I always say to folks who are sort of, you know, particularly if they're geographically restricted, it's like they have two or three that they're like definitely going to apply for. And then they have a few others that they're kind of in between on. Yeah. And I think what happens is that we put this pressure on ourselves. And we really equate applying for with accepting an offer to. So we put all of that pressure on us on the front end. And then we end up not applying for programs that we're not sure about. And so we only apply to the two or three or whatever it is. So what I always, I always try to reframe that. And in terms of when you're, if you apply to a program, all that you're doing is you're keeping the door open. So that's it. You're committing to nothing. What I always say is like the criteria, particularly if there's, you know, if particularly if there's like a small number that you're considering is if you got in nowhere else. And you got in there, would you consider going there? Yeah. And if the answer is yes, then apply. Obviously up to a certain number, whatever that, not really if that's 10 to whatever eight, whatever that number is for you. And that if you do get admitted there, I've get admitted there and nowhere else, you still do not have to accept it. Right. So once you get admitted, then you can really do the research to decide, do I want to do this or not? So I always encourage folks to sort of use that very loose criteria of just like if I got in there and I didn't get in there anywhere else, what I consider going and then if the answer is yes. And you have relatively, you know, you want to apply to more programs than apply. Yeah, I agree with that. And I also really want to highlight what you said about not applying to every program because I know people who applied to 30 plus programs across Canada. And the levels of stress that these people went through and also the cost because there's a cost for each application. But just the amount of time like every application needs different slightly different documents, they'll be similar probably, but they won't be the same. And it was like months that these people were put again to try to get in. So, wow, I don't know if they like got into a bunch. One person I actually don't know about them, but the other person I don't think they got into any and part of me wonders if that's because they were so spread out like they were working on so many things that their application was probably less home then that it could have been if they were a little bit more focused. Totally. Yeah, yeah, we'll talk about that a little bit when we get to talking about like the app like how you like tips for going through the application process of like doing that successfully. A couple things that I wanted to hit. So, do you have a sense of PhD versus society programs? A little bit. My understanding is almost you could think of them like an M.A. and an M.Ed. So, the SID is much more practice clinical focused, whereas the PhD is much more research academic focus, but they're both doctorate degrees. I think that that's so so the and we should be clear on this so amies in a or when amies talking about we should probably take to instead of M.A. M.Ed. We should use the language like thesis non thesis or research non research. So, this is another thing actually I'm really glad you brought this up because I totally spaced on it, which is at certain programs. I don't know if credentials I don't think that's right, but like so certain programs, they'll be like a masters of arts and a masters of science or a master of arts and a master education or all these and so all of those things let's put the side aside for the moment. They mean different things at different institutions. So, this is something that took me a while to figure out when I was applying. So, don't assume, oh, this is a master of arts. So, that means that there's a thesis component. Well, maybe at some institutions, but not at all. So, like you need to like read the fine print on that and that's just like institutional, whatever, like whatever the norms are at that particular institution that's not up to the program. So, that is just that is worth sort of noting. So, the PhD and the side, theoretically, the side, the idea is it's a practitioner training program primarily and the PhD is more so of a research oriented type of program. You can kind of think about it like balance scales. So, for and compare them relative to one another, not to like, oh, this means is 50% clinic or 50% practitioner versus 50% research is not like that. So, theoretically, when you look at a side program, the balance is a little bit heavier on practitioner training and therefore a little bit later on research and then for the PhD, it's the other way around. Again, just like the clinical and counseling difference, it's the categories are okay, but far from perfect. So, you have to look at programs to really dig into it and understand what's happening at that particular program, what their graduates are doing. So, I will say so obviously I went to a PhD program, not obviously, but I went to a PhD program. So, so I have that sort of bias or perspective, I'm sure the beef folks who disagree with me on these things. So, by and large, if you wanted to go on to have more of a research oriented career or potentially be a professor or something like that, by and large, not solely, there are people with sideys who are great, great researchers, academics, by and large, you're going to be better off going to a PhD program. Not always, typically, I would say. In terms of opening clinical doors, going to a sidey, at least I would say, doesn't really open more of those doors. So, you know, I wouldn't think about it like if I want to be a clinician and open those doors, I should go to a sidey. And when the rubber, when the rubber meets the road, I don't think that's necessarily the case. What I always do tell folks who are considering sidey programs, and I've often suggested people consider sidey programs who aren't considering them. So, what I would say is that you need to do a little bit more research, or at least make sure to do research in terms of the quality of the programs. Sidey programs are by and large at private institutions, and many of them are for profit, private institutions, or some of them, I don't know, I don't want to say many implying so 50% because I honestly don't know. So, there are what we call diploma mills out there at the sidey, where they are just bringing people to get money and then spitting them out, and the quality of training is not very good. So, I always say you just need to do a little more research when you're considering a sidey program versus a PhD program. Would it be, would there be a difference in acceptance rates at those programs, a sidey versus a PhD? Absolutely can be. There are some, some of the, there are some sidey programs that to me, to have, jarringly high acceptance rates. You know, that can be, for some folks, it can be, you know what, I know this training isn't going to be the best, or it might not be the best, and maybe I'll be better off going over here. But, I just want to get in and get through, and I'll get better training, you know, I'll really work hard to get the best training I can from, and you know, maybe that's okay. I mean, it's not, I was problematic, but I don't want to sort of suggest like that all of these options are unacceptable options for everyone. Because I think that there's a lot, a lot of nuance in the individual person's experience and what they need and what will work well for them. And it sounds a lot like something someone told me when I was applying for master's programs, because obviously there's, you know, different, I guess, different reputations for different programs. So, you know, some of them are fully online, so how you feel about learning, counseling, when you're in an online program, things like that. And someone gave me the advice of, you know, if getting into a program allows you to get the degree and to work in the field you want to work in, there is something to be said for that, because you are the person that decides what kind of practitioner you're actually going to be. You're going to put in the time to find your own supplemental training and to work hard and to learn the skills and do a good job. There's something to be said for just getting in and getting that piece of paper, though, as you can see the work. So it sounds kind of similar to that, but also with the caveat of, you know, a good program is going to set you up well to do well. So there's a lot of importance on that as well. Yeah, exactly, because, you know, if you don't get good training supervision, like you won't even, you know, it's that you don't know what you don't know, which is always the case. Yeah. The other thing, this probably goes without saying, but a lot of side is because they're often a private institutions, almost always a private institutions, they're always almost always much, much more expensive. So I think that's pretty obvious statement, but also certainly something to take into consideration. And then the other thing sort of while we're on these this doctoral program thing. So, do you have any sense of how that works or what the importance of that? So as far as I've looked into it, it's important in helping you know which programs are maybe vetted to be super solid programs. And then you can facilitate with actually getting like your registration when you're done the program to make sure that you know you have everything you need and that you can register quickly and efficiently without having to do, you know, extra things at the end. Those would be kind of my two main ideas for it. Yeah. And so I think for this one, it's worth sort of separating masters level programs, being credited in PhD per or doctoral. So, to talk about the doctoral ones, just because that's where this really matters, I would say. So when folks talked to me about applying to doctoral programs in almost all cases, you should be applying to accredited doctoral programs. So the, if they're accredited, that means that some governing body. So in the US, the America Psychological Association in Canada, the Canadian Psychological Association. That and you know, I guess we should also say in front of you is that the outset, maybe I'll say it in the intro, which is that really what we're talking about here is very much within North American context. So things are different in Europe, in South America, just sort of everywhere, they're, they're sort of different. So, yeah, so in the US, the American Psychological Association in Canada, the Canadian Psychological Association. So there is a body that basically says, here are the things you need to make sure to sort of high level things need to be make sure to be educating folks on training folks on in your programs for us to credit you. You have to write reports back to those organizations, those organizations come visit you every X many years to make sure you're doing that, doing those things. So there's just some sort of oversight in terms of your training program. So that is great. So an incredible, if you go to, so for an accredited program, you know, at the very least that they're meeting those criteria, jumping over that threshold. So more practically, at the doctoral level, there are certain doors that will simply be closed to you if you do not go to an accredited program. Oh, really? Yeah, so there's certain in Canada, the term residency, move to the term residency in the US, it's still internship that the, that pre-doctoral internship, there are, you know, any number of sites that are just like we're not going to look at you. Unless you want to an accredited, accredited graduate program, PhD program or doctoral program, I should say. Or if they will look at you, if they're going to look at you a little bit of a raised eyebrow, you'll certainly be, there'll be more scrutiny. And, you know, so, so, and then there potentially other doors as well, that'll be closed to you as you move along. Not all doors, but some. The other very practical thing is that for when it comes to getting licensed or registered, so depending on where you live, some places call license, some places call it registered, that if that when you're applying for that, at many places, it's, you, if you went to an accredited program, it's just like. You just give them, you just say, I went to an accredited program, check, move on to the next thing for other, but if you didn't, you say, I did not go to an accredited program, check, and then all these other things come up that you have to do. To document, to verify, to demonstrate that your program met whatever criteria that, that licensing body is asking for or expecting. So, it's, it's kind of a fast pass or like a nexus pass as well. These are things, so in terms of having some sort of oversight over the program, doors being open to you, if it's accredited, and then having that fast pass functionality, if it's accredited, you know, so it's, it's really worth considering. I mean, I would say it's very important. So, yeah, not again, just like we've sort of been talking about, there are, there are certain people in certain situations where like, that's just not possible. Right. But they want to go in a certain direction for their career. So, obviously, so with that caveat, sorry, interrupt to you. So, so for, so those people that can't do an accredited program for whatever reason, they, they'll still be all right and they can register or get licensure or whatever. But it'll be slower or are there some doors that will just never be open to them. So, in terms of actually getting licensed, I don't think that there are any of those doors that are permanently closed to them. But there might be certain employment opportunities that are closed to them. Yeah, so, yeah, so, yeah. And then a master level, sorry, I've never been to a video. No, go ahead. At the master's level, you said it's a little bit different. Yeah, so in Canada, it's extremely different. And it varies a bit province to province. Actually, you know what, not I'm saying that I don't know if that's true. There's master's level licensure in certain provinces that are done differently. But I don't think having your master's program being accredited gets you anything anywhere in Canada. So, I don't think it's very helpful at all. In the US because of KCrep, which is a master's level accrediting body. Yeah, be curious. And if anybody knows, let me know or if you're watching on YouTube, just leave a comment down below. And what I would do, so if you are in the US, the thing to do is to one, look into, so you know, you can just go online and see what your state license, your requirements or whatever are. And so just go look at it. And then the second thing, again, would be to talk to folks who are working in the types of places that you want to work in to see if it matters. And then you can just buy and large. And I know somebody's going to be like, no, no, you know, I live in Nebraska and it's totally really matters. I'm sure that there are some of those cases. I'm sure of it. And I think that it's must, it's much less universal than at the doctor level. Yeah. And you know, just like any of this stuff, you have to do your homework for your own particular area. So did you take off? I can't remember. Did you take off after undergrad? It didn't take some time off. No, I didn't. What was the messages you were hearing about that? Super mixed, super mixed. And I had some people that were like, yes, absolutely take the time off. It's good to have a break. You know, I didn't honors degrees. So the last year in a bit of my undergrad was very stressful. And so there was a lot of people saying, you know what you want to take the break, take the mental break, build up some experience. And then I had other people that were like, you know what, you're in the mindset. You just came through the program and we will get into it while you still remember how to break papers and do research. And I can see the pros and cons of both to be honest. So I applied to competitive programs very much accepting that I might not get in. So I applied for the like starting, I graduated in December from my undergrad and I started September in the master's program. But I was 100% prepared to not get in and have that gap year. So I think that mindset is helpful. It first of all took pressure off writing applications. Because I wasn't, you know, all my eggs in one basket. If I don't get in, what am I going to do with my life? But I do think getting in right away was helpful in that I slipped back into school mode very easily. So that worked well for me, but I definitely got advice for both. And were there some people saying you should take time off because like getting more like, does that will help you be more competitive? Yeah, totally. Yeah, build up your experience. Because I mean, I had a decent amount of experience coming out of undergrad for the stage that I was at. But I mean, people applied to these programs for years. So having a year off to get some kind of, you know, work experience that's hoping related or in some kind of adjacent field or being able to do some extra volunteering or whatever. Like I think it's super helpful for an application. So I think that you really hit on something that I hadn't thought about framing it this way. But I think it's the way to frame it, which is if you want to take a year off or you want to take time off because you do need a break, you should take time off. Yeah, like, you know, like I think that that's that makes a lot of sense for a lot of people. Yeah. So that's sort of one bucket, which is like, that's what I want to do because I just want to take time off, which is different than the take time off of school to strengthen my application blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like for those sorts of those sorts of forgetting into graduate school, like using it for doing it for that those sorts of reasons. And I would so that I want to push back on that idea that I've talked to I've had I know if that several people in my life who, you know, not so surprisingly, I know lots of people who got their doctorates in clinical counseling psychology. And I have several who are like, yeah, I took off a year and I worked at, you know, a women shelter because I thought that was what I was supposed to do, but it was stupid. I shouldn't take it off here. Like it wasn't it wasn't like a terrible thing. It's just like it didn't help. It wasn't beneficial to me. Yeah. So I think I want to push back on so that story. I think is relatively common. So if folks are feeling like I need to take off time to get more experience, like turn down the volume on that voice. I think do exactly what Amy did, which is apply thinking, yeah, I want to apply this year and there's a good chance I won't get in. And so I'll apply again next year. So I'll set myself up to be gaining more experience, strengthening my CV. But I'm not just going to sit around because so I think if you, if you're, I shouldn't say sit around, you're not going to not apply just because. So I think that if it's because you feel like you need to get more experience because people are telling you that. Or people look at your application stronger if you have graduated versus are just about to graduate. Or if you're just feeling a lack of confidence. Like those voices, I want you to turn them down and potentially even just mute them. And just say I'm going to apply and see what happens. And I'm going to get in and out of stories of people who just like you did Amy where it's like, I don't think I'm going to get in. I'll do it again next year, but I'm going to apply anyway and got in is out of control. There are so, I've heard that story is so common. Or, oh, I didn't think I would get into this program. But I applied anyway and I ended up getting in. Yeah, well, I think we have such a strong narrative of how competitive these programs are for good reason. They're very competitive programs. But especially by the end of your undergrad, all you've heard is they're so competitive, they're so competitive. You can work it up in your head to the point where you're like, why even bother? Like I shouldn't apply. I'm not going to have this, you know, whatever level of experience you now have in your head as being this golden standard that you'll never achieve. When you work yourself into that state, like it becomes overwhelming to think of applying or to think of your odds of getting in. But it's almost like a form of giving up on yourself to not just apply anyways. Because I mean, I don't know what you guys look for when you go through applications. I don't know what your sheet looks like and what's taking those boxes. And so you just write yourself off without even giving yourself a chance. And I do think, you know, even if I hadn't gotten in and I'd had the extra year to work and get experience and everything, I would be going into this round of applications much more confident because I have based documents that can work with. I've gone through the procedure before I know what the portals are like. So it takes a lot of pressure off that second application where now you have more experience as well. So as long as you're not, you know, spending thousands of dollars applying to, you know, a whole bunch of programs, I think it's worth at least a couple of applications. Yeah, I think that's you know that you hit on another point that is totally right. And this is also something I say to people, which is if you don't get in, then when you're going to apply again next year, you already have that first, you already have a like a very strong draft you're basing it off. So what you're going to do is you're going to take your, I'm just making up things here, your B plus draft. And then you're going to make it into an A or an A plus draft because if you, if you're, and we all know this, if you're starting with something that's B plus, it's, you know, you can take it to an A plus or an A or an A plus. But if you're starting with something that's nonexistent, yeah, it's very difficult to get it to the A plus. So I couldn't agree more. And something else that people have asked me over the years is, if I apply and I don't get in and I reapply next year, is that perceived as a bad thing. You know, to that. And so I can only speak for my experience on this end of it. But I, so I've been doing it for, I've been here for 12 years. I've been a part of admissions for probably 10 of those 12 and have, you know, I don't know, 1500 2000, I don't even know how many we, I've been a part of going through. And I've literally zero times in those countless hours that I've spent in meetings with my colleagues going through applications and talking about applications and judicating applications zero times as that come up. So yeah, and part of it to be honest with you is like, you know, I get an application to review. I mean, you know, I'll get a pile of applications to review. But I don't even, you know, I'm going through the application. I don't even care what the person's name is as I'm going through the application. Because why should I? Right. You know, like, you know, I don't look at any of the demographic stuff because what does it matter? You know, like, I don't know. So I don't know it's, you know, John Smith, like I don't know that that, you know, so I don't even, so if the application comes again next year. One, why did 200 of them last year, 150 or 100 or whatever it was. So what are the odds? So even if I did know that it was, you know, John Smith or, you know, let's make it John Simpson. So it was a little bit less generic, so pretty generic that, that like, even if I did note the odds that, you know, 11 months later, 12 months later, I'm going to remember that it's that person is very low. I don't even, you know, generally speaking, I never even looked at that person's name. I have my rating form. I have their application and I'm going through and I'm going through to fill out the rating form and taking some notes and the application. And then I'm going to the next one and I'm going to the next one. I'm going to the next one. So I just don't even remember. Right. It's not even a fact that there's a good chance if you do. Yeah. And if you do apply again, there's also a good chance that if I saw you last year, I won't see you this year because somebody else will. You know, so anyway, I just think so anyway, the point is don't worry about applying multiple times. Right. You know, and I think it's common, isn't it? Like a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, sometimes, you know, I mean, honestly, you know, obviously I reviewed your file. Like if you asked me right now, was that the first time that Amy applied to our program? I wouldn't know. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. So I think that's a good point. Yeah. So let's let's talk about like learning about programs. And let's so there are obviously. So in your case, you probably just because you were geographically restricted. You might know, you had a spreadsheet, but so you probably literally wrote down here are the institutions in the, you know, you drew a circle. So here are the X many institutions. I'm going to go and look at each one of those institutions look at the programs that they have that might fit for me. I'm going to write those down. And then, and then I'm going to investigate the particular programs. Was that is that about right? Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty much it. Yeah. Once I crossed off any that I was like those no chance or it's too expensive. Like that. And I had kind of a short list. Yeah. Right. Sure. So obviously if you're in, if your geography is limited and you want that that geography is the way to go. If you're, do you have a sense of how your peers colleagues who are looking more like all over how they went about investigating graduate programs? So most of the people that I talked to were focused on research programs. So I think that's important to highlight because that's going to make a difference. And they really looked at the quality of the research program. So for example, UVC is really known as being a research driven institution. So that would matter to people. So kind of looking at a like across Canada programs to have a good reputation as being driven by research. And then also supervisor interest. So here let me back up just one for one second. How did they even like get that initial list of like what are the programs that like the universe of programs I could consider. I think a lot of it came through word of mouth from faculty they were talking to. And then I would imagine a lot of time spent online just looking through looking through programs looking through their websites. I mean, I would assume there's a certain amount of reddit exploration on what kinds of programs are good programs for people who are in them. But yeah, I think also I mean because I went to Quantlin, which is a little bit of a smaller school. I knew a lot of faculty well. And I think that was common with the students who are applying to grad school is that you knew your faculty pretty well. So there is a lot of mentorship from them in kind of helping to find programs that fit. Which was yeah, really helpful. Yeah, that's great. So the other couple things I would add and folks who are listening to this probably already most of you know. But so one thing that you can do is just if you go online to whatever the accrediting body is you can see all the accredited programs. So particularly if you're applying for doctoral programs, you can see all the accredited programs. That's a great way to start. There's also a great book, which I will link in the show notes. The insiders guide to graduate programs and clinical and counseling psychology. So that's a great resource. It's imperfect. But it's a really nice place to start. That's something. Yeah. Okay. So now let's get more into the. The specific in terms of like learning about more about specific programs. I'll cut you off. Oh, no, that's okay. Yeah. So then for me personally, you want to go back to how you talk about how some of your peers did it. Right. Right. So spend a lot of time on the website. I think that was a common thread for people and certain institutions will have websites that are super easy to navigate and find all the information. Others will be a bit more confusing and you'll have to dig and there might be a website for the school and a separate one for the program and then, you know, going back and forth and finding all the information you need. So like spend a lot of time looking through the websites. I think I like I spent hours looking through different websites for different programs trying to find the answers to all of my questions and the information that I needed. So I think that's great. So that's funny. You mentioned the website thing because, you know, I can play in about UBC's website. But then I'll go on other universities websites and, you know, I won't mention any names University of Toronto. But that and I go there and I'm just like, what is this? It's like, who? It's like, you know, some web developer just like gave their mouse to their toddler. And that was how it was developed. Like, it's like, why can I not, you know, because I still have to go to different programs websites for any number of reasons to, you know, to, I like, oh, I met this person at this conference and they were McGill and I want to contact them. I think McGill is actually all right. But anyway, my memory is so like, but I, you know, I don't know their email or I saw this person at this conference. I was talking about this paper that she or this tool, this measurement tool that she used and she said it's available on our website. So I need to go to a website. So I'm on, you know, various other institutions websites relatively frequently and it's like, oh, man, some of these are complete dumpster fire. So that's a very good point. So I completely agree with Amy about what she's saying in terms of investigating on the website. So a couple of other things to consider or sort of ways to get information. So particularly, this will talk about this in a little bit, particularly this might be more of a, if you get accepted sort of a thing because you'll have a couple of months in between when you typically in between to get accepted when you decide whether or not to accept the offer. So I'm going to go to students in that graduate program. So if you're interested in working with Dr. Smith, you get accepted. Feel free to shoot Dr. Smith an email. Dr. Smith, this is great. I am so excited. I really pretty, I both law. Could you give me a, I just wanted to reach out to chat with a couple of your current or former graduate students. Could you give me a couple of their email addresses so I could shoot them an email. I think that, you know, that is a great way and totally socially appropriate. Yeah, to get a sense. And if it's a faculty member who's really new so they, you know, maybe you're their first graduate student. Just ask them, could you give me the name of the email address of one or two students in your program that I could reach out to even if it wasn't their graduate students. Right. So I think that's a great way to try to get a sense of the offer. And I think that's a great way to get a sense of the offer. And I think that's a great way to get a sense of the offer. And I think that's a great way to get a sense of the offer. And I think that's a great way to get a sense of the offer. And I think that's a great way to get a sense of the offer. And I think that's a great way to get a sense of the offer. And I think that's a great way to get a sense of the offer. And I think that's a great way to get a sense of the offer. And I think that's a great way to get a sense of the offer. But some of them are awful. So that's the most important thing to learn about, to try to find out about. And it's a very small percentage, very small percentage, but you want to find out about that. So this should help you to find out about that. Well, I was just going to say like that was something. So when I got my offer from UVC, that was something that we had talked about before when we done our interview meeting. And we were talking to some of your current students and it was really, really helpful because as you said, people are going to say nice things. They're not going to get on and say dance wearables don't work with them. But you can ask questions in a way where you're going to get an idea for the sense of how things have gone for them. And even if they're bending the truth a little bit, you'd be able to tell if they're like, okay, how do I answer this? So I think like you could still get a good sense from them how things have gone. If they're excited to talk to you, if they're engaged in the conversation, if they're really excited, you got accepted to the program. Those are all kind of good signs that they've had a good experience. Whereas it's like they don't even want to talk to you or meet with you. That might be a bit of a red flag. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And definitely get a couple of names. So you just not just one person because they're flaky people or people that are more difficult to get up with. So get a couple. So you can and then also you get a little more liability. Hopefully they're sort of like you're looking for some consistency. Yeah. Yeah. And particularly after you get admitted, like they can't take that away. So you can ask questions to those students somewhat directly. And you don't have to worry about how it's going to that it could impact will I get an offer or not. Okay. So two other things I think just to to consider one, if you're applying to an accredited doctoral program, they have to publish certain statistics publicly. You can go and look at those. So one of the things that you want to look at is the internship or residency, the match rate. So because everybody needs to do a pre doctoral internship at towards the end of their, towards the end of their doctoral program. You want to see what their match rate is. And you'll start to get a sense. And so like if you're seeing a program that you know over the last five years, their match rates 20% or 30% or whatever it's like, oh, this is probably no good. So you can, you know, and oftentimes programs have relatively small numbers of students. So you'll have. So for a given program. They might have, you know, on a given year, they might just happen to have only two people applying for internship or residency. So if you see that there's a 50% match rate that year, you know, all the other years are really high. One year is 50%. You know, dig into that a little bit because it's like, oh, there's one person out of two that didn't get matched. But every other year they've had 100% like, so you know, be a critical thinker about this. But that's something worth considering. The other thing is, so if you are interested in a research career or becoming an academic, then one of the things that I think that you should look at is the faculty members recent publication history. So the question you want to answer is, are they publishing? So there are. And so the way that I would do it. Well, it depends. But one way would certainly be like Google scholar is a really good way to do it. Don't trust faculty websites. Trust me. They're like, yeah, there are handful of people have really nice ones that are updated. But like, I guess it's around 10%. Most of them, I always say are like kind of this archeological like what would come up? You didn't archeological dig. It was like when the student what everyone the faculty member was in their first two or three years. And they were really motivated one week and really worked on it. And ever since then, it's just, you know, dirt and dust is piled on top. And it just so it's like it's indicative of what their motivations were when they were, you know, a relatively new assistant professor. So don't just sort of like for most of us to ignore those. But Google scholar research gate, things like that to actually see, you know, hopefully if possible, you'll be able to see are they publishing with their graduate students. Right. Right. So like that might take a little more cross referencing to figure that out. But those are the two things. So first, are they publishing recently. So you will see people who did really great and influential work. 15 years ago. And you look and that they've published two things in the last four years. And one was an encyclopedia entry. You know, I mean, like, you know, you'll start, you'll see that. And it's like, OK. So if I want to pursue an academic or research career, I need to be with someone who's producing now. So that's something that I would that's a good way to assess that. And then to see if it's their students, you know, that again, that can be a little bit more challenging. But if there's a way to produce sort of cross reference to their students are or the students showing up on their papers. That's also a really great way to tell. That's a wrap on our conversation about which graduate programs to apply to join us next time when we talk about what you can do to make your application as strong as possible. As I noted at the top of the show, you can check us out on YouTube links are in the show notes. Until next time.[Music]

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Dr. Dan Cox

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Amie Orsetti

Guest