How Gloria Tests and Coaches Dr. Carl Rogers with Dr. David Kealy

Dr. David Kealy, associate Professor in the Department of Psychiatry at the University of British Columbia, returns for part two on how patients coach and test their psychiatrists. 

Dan and Dr. Kealy watch and comment on the much-studied video of Dr. Carl Rogers and the patient, "Gloria." From the video, Dr. Kealy points out how she tests and coaches Dr. Rogers during their psychotherapy session. Taking moments from the video, Dr. Kealy highlights Gloria's needs for open communication, the struggle for self-acceptance, and the role of therapy in addressing her own needs. Through the conversation, Dan and Dr. Kealy highlight the significance of understanding one's own beliefs and the need for supportive therapeutic relationships.

Special Guest: Dr. David Kealy

The San Francisco Psychotherapy Research Group

How Psychotherapy Works by Joseph Weiss

Transformative Relationships by George Silberschatz

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to the Gloria Session and Coaching Framework
• 2:00 Gloria’s Guilt and Coaching Cues
• 5:00 Self-Judgment and the Role of Therapist Compatibility
• 8:00 Guilt as a Central Therapeutic Focus
• 12:00 Coaching, Testing, and the Therapist’s Response
• 16:00 Pathogenic Beliefs and the Internal Moral Conflict
• 21:00 Therapy Shifts Toward Self-Acceptance Goals
• 27:00 Gloria’s Bold Test and Rogers’ Response
• 32:00 Revealing Parental Trauma and Safety in Therapy
• 38:00 Applying Control Mastery Theory and Further Resources

Transcript

0:00

[Music] In today's episode, my guest tonight watched the iconic Gloria video, where the patient, Gloria, has a single psychotherapy session with Dr. Carl Rogers, Rogers being the founder of Person Center at Psychotherapy. Periodically, as we watch, we pause the video and discuss the coaching and testing that's happening in the session. If you're listening to the audio version of the show, and if you want to see the actual Gloria and Rogers video, you can watch this episode on YouTube. The link is in the episode description. That being said, I think that the audio version does a very nice job of catching what happens in the session. Also, if you've not listened to the previous episode where we discussed patient's coaching and testing their therapists, I encourage you to listen to this one first, as my guest does a great job of describing the coaching and testing as it happens. Then, if you want more background, go back and check out the previous episode. I'm your host, Dr. Dan Cox, a professor of counseling psychology at the University of British Columbia. Welcome to psychotherapy and applied psychology, where I dive deep with leading researchers to uncover practical insights, pull back the curtain, and hopefully have a little bit of fun along the way. If you enjoy the show, do me a huge favor and subscribe when your podcast player or, if you're watching on YouTube, hit the like and subscribe buttons. It's one of the best ways to help us keep these conversations going. The first thing that you'll hear in this episode is Dr. Carl Rogers as he begins his session with Gloria, so without further ado, here's my conversation about Rogers and Gloria with Dr. David Keely. We have half an hour together and I really don't know what we'll be able to make of it, but I hope we can make something big-led to know whatever concerns you. Well, right now I'm nervous, but I feel more comfortable the way you're talking in a little voice, and I don't feel like you'll be so harsh on me. Okay, can we stop it then? Okay, so I was just struck, she said, I don't feel like you'll be so harsh on me. I would take that as coaching. What is she coaching? She's letting him know that a concern that she has is with people or maybe herself, we don't have enough information yet, but there's this a signal here that she's really concerned about harsh attitudes toward herself. So she's highlighting a salient theme for herself. Got it. Okay, keep going? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What are your voice? Well, you're very nice. The main thing I want to talk to you about is I'm just newly divorced and I had gone in therapy before and I felt comfortable when I left and all of a sudden now the biggest change is adjusting to my single life. And one of the things that bothered me the most is especially men and having men to the house and how it affects the children. The biggest thing I want, the thing keeps coming to my mind. I want to tell you about is I have a daughter nine who at one time I thought I had a lot of emotional problems. I wish I could stop shaking. And I'm real conscious of things affecting her. I don't want her to get upset. I don't want it to shock her. I want so bad to for her to accept me. And we're real open with each other especially about sex. And the other day she saw a girl that was single but pregnant and she asked me all about can girls get pregnant if they're single. And the conversation was fine and I wasn't on at ease at all with her until she asked me if I'd ever meet love to a man since I was after that. And I lied to her. And ever since that it keeps coming up to my mind because I feel so guilty lying to her because I never lie and I wanted to trust me. And I want I almost want an answer from you. I want you to tell me if it will affect her wrong if I told her the truth or what. Okay so I just have to stop right there. Yeah yeah. Yeah what are your thoughts? Oh well she's highlighting how important guilt is in her set of problems right. She feels very guilty just through this. What sounds like a pretty innocuous conversation with her daughter. She's feeling a tremendous amount of guilt of a you know like not giving her daughter the whole story about you know what's going on in her intimate life. She's racked with guilt about it and she's hoping that the therapist can help her with that. I think that's that's the setup here. That's that's the kind of coaching. She's presenting this issue to the therapist around. She has this sort of harsh internal attitude toward herself manifesting this guilt and she's posing it to the therapist like I want you to tell me something there may be some testing in that. But I think the coaching earlier around I don't feel like you'll be so harsh on me. She's letting the therapist know that she what's going to help her the most is if she has a therapist who's not going to be harsh with her who's not going to give her the sense that she's being judged. Because she struggles with this kind of into you know lack of acceptance of herself and propensity to want guilt and it seems like that's what she really wants to get help with. And it's this concern about her and the fact that you really aren't that this open relationship that has existed between you and I you feel as kind of yes I feel like I have to be on guard about that because I remember when I was a little girl when I first found out my mother father made love it was dirty and terrible and I didn't I didn't like her anymore for a while and I don't want to lie to pammy either and I don't know I'm sure wish I could give you the answer is to what you should tell her all the frayed you're going to say that because what you really want isn't answer. I want to especially know if it would affect her if I was completely honest and open with her or if it would affect her because I lied I feel like it's bound to make a strain because I lied to her. She'll suspect that or she will know something's not quite right. I really have to hide she'll distrust me yes and also I thought what she would about when she gets a little older and she finds herself in touchy situation she probably wouldn't want to admit it to me because she thinks I'm so good and so sweet and yet I'm afraid she could think I'm really a devil and I want so bad for her to accept me and I don't have a 99 year old kid. You want to pause? Yeah so I mean I'm afraid that she'll think I'm really a devil that's that's a pretty harsh way of putting it so again she's letting the therapist know there's this real sort of internal harshness and the way that she views herself and the way she she she worries about herself as a parent and how her kids will think about her so I think as a therapist from a control mastery perspective you'd already be hypothesizing and and sort of putting some pieces of the formulation together. Take and really both alternatives concern you that she might think you're too good or better than you really are. Yes. And she might think that you're worse than you are. Not worse than I am. I don't know if she can accept me the way I think I paint a picture that I am all sweet and motherly and I'm a little ashamed of my shady side too. Mm-hmm. Well, I see. It really cuts a little deeper. If she really knew you, would she could she accept you? This is what I don't know. Yes. I don't want her to turn away from me. And I don't even know how I feel about it because there are times when I feel so guilty like when I have a man over. I even try to make a special setup so that if I were ever alone with him the children would never catch me and that sort of thing because I'm really worried about it. And yet I also know I have these desires. So it's quite clear. It isn't only her problem or the relationship with her. It's in you as well. Oh my guilt. Yeah. I feel guilty so much. What can I accept myself as doing? Yes. Yes. And you realize that you set up sort of subdued futures so to make sure that that you're not caught or something you realize that you are acting from guilt, is it? Yes. I don't like the way I would like to feel comfortable with whatever I do. If I choose not to tell Pammy the truth, to feel comfortable that she can handle it and I don't. I want to be honest and yet I feel there are some areas that I don't even accept. So I would be hearing that as coaching about an important goal that she has in therapy. She says it very clearly. I would like to feel comfortable with whatever I do. She's a person who's racked with guilt. She has a hard time accepting herself. She doesn't she certainly doesn't take it for granted that she's you know sort of like a good enough parent, a responsible parent, even though it sounds like she's being very responsible, you know, when she's dating, she's being responsible about how she goes about it, not sort of putting too much on her kids. And yet she feels racked with guilt and she doesn't accept. She doesn't accept herself. So I would be hearing that as what we call proactive coaching. She's being proactive in laying out for the therapist an important goal. Yeah she certainly does kind of come in very prepared in terms of what she's hoping to get out of this. Yeah. Yeah. If you can't accept them in yourself, how could you possibly be comfortable in telling them to her? Right. And yet as you say you do have these desires and you do have your feelings but but you don't feel good about them. Right. And I I I'm sorry you're just going to sit there and let me stew on it. And I want more. I want you to help me get rid of my guilt feeling. If I can get rid of my guilt feeling about lying or going to bed with a single man, any of that just so I can feel more comfortable. And so right there Dave, is that is that coaching where when she's saying to him like she's saying I want you to help me. So in a way, right she's telling him what she wants but she's also saying I want you to just do it. I want you to me wave the magic wand and there you go. Well I don't know that she's saying that she wants to know of a magic wand. I didn't hear that. I did hear her say that she wants more. She she's worried that he's not going to be more active. She's worried that he won't help her get to what's at the core of this guilt. I mean it may come across as oh I just want the answer just give me the answer and I'll up and leave. I don't think she's quite put it that that bluntly but I think she is signaling that she wants to the this guilt is a huge problem for her and she wants to she wants more than just kind of sitting here naval gazing over it. She wants to get get at maybe she wants to get it where this comes from. Maybe she wants to understand more about it and and she wants more of the therapist help. She wants to work. Yeah yeah yeah okay yeah and I guess I'd like to say no I don't want to let you just stew in your feelings but on the other hand I also feel that this is the kind of very private thing that I couldn't possibly answer for you that I sure as anything will try to help you work toward your own answer. Now if you pause there for a minute I thought that was a really good response from him in that you know he's he's indicating that he does want to help he can't just give her the answer but he does want to help but I think part of what's important is that he has an attitude toward her that's already quite planned compatible. She said before that basically she coached him that it would help her feel safe if he's not judgmental and you know she's in a way by presenting this material about having men over and everything. She's she's you could possibly hypothesize that she's inviting him. She's setting it up that he could be judgmental maybe back in the day you know this this would have been even more difficult material for a woman to talk about with an older male therapist and and he's responding in a way that's that's not judging her for the for the conflict for these desires that she feels guilty about so he seems to have an attitude toward her that is in the direction of compatibility with with her plan with at least with this aspect of the plan. And I just looked it up and this was at least on a real quick search this was filmed in 19 excuse me 1964 okay I don't know whether it makes any sense to you but I mean it well I appreciate you saying that you sound like you mean it but I don't want her to go I don't begin to know where to go I thought that I'd pretty well worked over most of my guilt and now that this is coming up I'm disappointed in myself I really am I want I like it when I feel that no matter what I do even if it's against my own morals or my upbringing that I can still feel good about me and now I don't like there's a girl at work who sort of mothers me and she just she I think she thinks I'm all sweet and I sure don't want to show my more ordinary devilish side with her I want to be sweet and it's so hard for me to this all seems so new again it's so disappointing yeah I'll get the disappointment that here a lot of these things you thought you'd work through and now the guilt and the feeling that only a part of you is acceptable to anybody else yes that keeps coming out so you could you could formulate in a way her belief something along the lines of if I'm not perfect if I'm not sweet and nice then it means I'm a bad person I'm unacceptable I guess I do catch the real deep puzzlement that you feel is to what the hell shall I do can I yes and you know what I can find doctor is that everything I start to do that I impulse it seems natural to tell Pam here or to go out on a day or something I'm comfortable until I think how I was affected as a child and the minute that comes up then I'm all haywire like I want to be a good mother so bad and I feel like I am a good mother but then there's those little exceptions like my guilt's with working I want to work and it's so fun having extra money I like to work nights the minute I think I'm not being real good to the children are giving them enough time then I start feeling guilty again then that's when I'm it's what do they call it a double bind that's just what it feels like I want to do this and it feels right but after all I'm not being a good mother and I want to be both I'm becoming more and more aware of what a perfectionist I am that's what it seems like I want to be so perfect either I want to become perfect in my standards or not have that need anymore or I guess I hear it a little differently that what you want is to seem perfect that it means it's a great matter great importance to you to be a good mother and you want to seem to be a good mother even if some of your actual feelings differ from that is that okay I don't feel like I'm saying that no that isn't what I feel really I want to approve of me always but my actions won't let me I want to approve of me so that seems to me to be an important incident incidents of what we call reactive coaching that she's reacting to something the therapist has taken from what she said and now she she needs to correct the therapist to get him back on track if he would have continued going down this path of oh maybe it's not really about this internal struggles to be perfect it's more about you know the kind of impression that you want to make to others she's correcting him she's saying no you I need you to understand this really is about my own struggle approving of myself I realize you all right let me because I'd like to understand it you sound as if your actions are kind of outside of you you want to approve of you but what you do somehow won't let you approve of yourself right seems like he took the coaching yeah yeah like I feel that I could approve of myself regarding for example my sex life this is the big thing if I really fell in love with a man and I respected him and I adored him I don't think I'd feel so guilty going to bed with him and I don't think I'd have to make up any excuses to the children because they could see my natural caring for him but when I have the physical desire and I'll say oh well why not and I want to anyway then I feel guilty afterwards I hate facing the kids I don't like looking at myself and I rarely enjoy it and this is what I mean if the circumstances would be different I don't think it feels so guilty because I feel right about it yeah I guess I hear you saying if if what I was doing when I went to bed with a man was really genuine and full of love and respect and so on I wouldn't feel guilty in relation to Pam I wouldn't I really would be comfortable about the situation that's how I feel yes and I know that sounds like I want a perfect situation but that is how I feel and in the meantime I can't stop these desires I've tried that also I've tried saying okay I don't like myself when I do that so I won't do it anymore but then I resent the children I think why should they stop me from doing what I want and it's really not that bad but I guess I heard you saying too that isn't only the children that you don't like it as well when it really isn't I'm sure that's I know that's it probably even more so than I'm aware of but I only notice it so much when I pick it up in the children then I can also notice it in myself somehow sometimes you kind of feel like blaming them for the feelings you have I mean why should they cut you off from a normal sex life well a sex life I could say not normal because there is something about me that says that's not very healthy to just go into sex because you feel physically attractive or something or a physical need so something about it tells me that's not quite right anyway so this is the interesting this little passage here you know up until this point Rajas seems to have been failing neutral you know in weighing in like in taking a side around her sexual activity right but she's made it very clear that she feels very guilty of about her dating and her sex life and here he said he said something about he referred to it as a normal sex life and so it it does seem like I don't know if he was conscious of this or not but it does seem like he's coming down on one side of this this conflict right he is in a way relieving her as a sort of authority figure in the if you think about this in terms of transference testing he is coming down on on a side here and saying look you're describing a normal sex life why should you feel so guilty about it that's kind of the position he seems to be taking although he's he's he's pretty much based himself in a kind of neutral position but did you get that do you get that sense yeah yeah and then she goes on and she clarifies and she says well there's something about me that says it's not very healthy that this is this is bad behavior right she then elaborates on the kind of internal judgment that she has about herself so she ends up telling him a little bit more or underlying underlining just how much of a pathogenic belief is involved here the pathogenic belief being that to want to engage in sexual activity outside of marriages is it means that I'm bad it sort of confirms that I'm as she said devilish or you know like it's there's something bad about me yeah in a way the the concern about the the kids it's a little bit I mean it's still an issue but it's as she seems to be getting at here it's secondary to the issue of her own self accusation and self-land such a feel really that at times you're acting in ways that are not in occurred with your own inner standards right right but then we're also saying a minute ago but to feel you can't help that either I wish I could that's it and I can't now I feel like I can't control myself as well as I could have before for a specific reason now I can't I just let go and I have there's too many things I do wrong that I have to feel guilty for and I sure don't like that I want you very much to give me a direct answer and I'm going to ask it and I don't expect a direct answer but I want to know do you feel that to me the most important thing is to be open and honest and if I can be open and honest with my children do you feel that it could harm them if for example I could say to Pammy I was I felt bad lie into you Pammy and I want to tell you the truth now and if I tell her the truth and she shocked at me and she's upset that that could bother her more I was I want to get rid of my guilt so that'll help me but I don't want to put them on her that's right do you feel that could hurt her I guess I'm sure this will sound evasive to you but it seems to me that perhaps the person you're not being fully honest with is you because I was very much struck by the fact that you were saying if I feel all right about what I have done but it's going to bed with a man or what if I really feel all right about it then I don't have any concern about what I would tell Pam or my relationship with him right all right now I hear what you're saying and all right then I want to work on I want to work on accepting me then I want to work on feeling all right about it but that makes sense that that'll come natural and then I won't have to worry about Pammy but when things do seem so wrong for me and I have an impulse to do them how can I accept that what you'd like to do is to feel more accepting to hurt yourself when you do things that you feel are wrong right I feel like I feel like I feel like I feel like you're going to say now why do you think they're wrong and I have mixed feelings there too through therapy all say no look I know this is natural women feel it sure we don't talk about it a lot socially but all women feel it and it's very natural I've had sex for the last 11 years I'm of course going to want it but I still think it's wrong unless you're really truly in love with a man and my body doesn't seem to agree and so I don't know how to accept it so I mean she might be coaching the therapist here to help her get into this more to understand why she feels this is wrong I mean I think it's been established now she's underscored for herself that the real issue here is around self acceptance she really has we don't know where that comes from yet but she has some pathogenic belief that's interfering with her from accepting herself and feeling comfortable with her you know living the way that she lives and enjoying a sexual life and I think she's hinting here to the therapist that she'd like to she'd like to get into it more she'd like to understand here this this this beta right do you think so the rogers sort of with her a minute ago sort of changed what I saw was a conscious change or recognition of and used a certain term earlier but like the client's goal or what they want to get out of therapy what was the term used yeah I would talk about the patient's goal okay okay so like that was that to me seemed like a pivotal moment where and it's sort of been moving in that direction which is yeah right like the recognition of oh this has more to do with me and my daughter sort of like a manifestation of this problem that's right yeah it's not really about this this therapy is not really about how do I talk to my kids about my dating life that's not really the essence here and I think that they've moved together toward some understanding of that that this this there the patient's plan if you will is to work on self acceptance are you going to go for a few more minutes yeah sure it sounds like a triangle to me didn't you feel it I or therapists in general or other people say it's all right it's all right it's natural enough go ahead and I guess the feel your body sort of lines up on that side of the picture but something in you says but I don't like it that way not unless it's really right right right but I have a hopeless feeling I mean these are all the things I sort of feel myself and I feel okay now what yeah if you'll this is the conflict and it's just insoluble and therefore it's hopeless and here you look to me and I don't seem to give you any help I really know you can't answer for me and I have to figure it out myself but I want you to guide me or show me where to start or so also hopeless I know I can keep living with this conflict and I know we eventually things would work out but I like feeling more comfortable the way I live and I'm not anything I might ask what does it you wish I would say to you I wish you would say to me to be honest and take the risk that Pam is going to accept me and I also have a feeling if I could really risk it with Pam and all people that I'd be able to see here's this little kid that can accept me and I'm really not that bad if she really knows what a demon I am and still loves me and accepts me it seems like it would help me to accept me more like it's really not that bad I want you to say to go ahead and be honest you want to have a prosperous second that's it I mean this is just a side point that occurs to me but she she may be giving some voice to just how much of a struggle it is for her to feel accepting of herself but she she is testing this out in the world I mean in a way she's she's looking at other relationships to see if other people can accept her then maybe she can acquire some of that acceptance toward herself so you know you can think about pathogenic beliefs as a kind of prism through which people see their experience and testing is a part of that where a person kind of amps it up to really get a sense of whether the pathogenic belief has to be true and adhered to or whether a person can find some relief from it well one of the things thing about is pretty so part of that testing is telling Rogers right to see his reaction and be willing to do that and also in reality she knows obviously that this is being recorded right so they're in some studio with probably you know three goes is the 60s right so three cameras the size of Buick's with you know a half dozen people in the other end so she's communicating this to everybody the thing that she feels guilt and shame over so like in a way that's a testing of her belief it's a powerful test yeah yeah Dan do you want to fast forward a little bit toward the end of the interview because in browsing through the transcript there is a test there there is a pretty significant test I mean the situation I'll just remember next time I mentioned this word a lot in therapy and most therapists grin at me or giggle or something when I say utopia but when I do follow up feeling and I feel this good feeling inside me that's sort of utopia that's what I mean that's a way I like to feel whether it's a bad thing or a good thing but I feel right about me in those utopian moments you really feel kind of whole you feel all in one piece yes yeah it gives me a choked up feeling when you say that because I don't get that as often as I'd like I like that whole feeling that's real precious to me I expect none of us get it as often as we like but I really do understand that that really does touch you didn't yeah you know what else I was just thinking I don't say it all of a sudden as I'm talking you know I thought gee how nice I can talk to you and I want you to approve of me and I respect you but I miss that my father can talk to me like you are I mean I'd like to say gee I'd like you for my father I don't even know why that came to me you look to me like a pretty nice guy but you really do miss the fact that you couldn't be open with your own day so I couldn't be I would think of this as a test around her belief that she's not acceptable and you know the fact that she's trying to overcome this lack of self acceptance and we're seeing a little bit of that around maybe a little bit around the relationship where this may come from she brings up the issue around you know how nice it would be that if she had been able to talk in the way that she's talking to Rogers because she could have related it with her own father in that way and I think it's his attitude that's overall compatible with her plan he's very accepting of her and I think that's probably his default right it's probably his default attitude to be very accepting you know he talked a lot about positive regard and empathy so I think that's probably his default attitude that's very pro plan for Gloria and it's allowing her to take a risk and actually test him in maybe a bit of a more bold way by saying something like gee I'd like you for my father it's kind of a bold thing to say to a therapist especially under the circumstances of this interview and I would say that he passed he passed the test we could see more about whether he passes the test by watching what happens immediately afterwards because that's something in the theory that we look for is what happens after after a test does the patient seem to open up more do they become more insightful do they share more of their history that's been painful for them if so it's likely that the therapist has facilitated safety by disconfirming the pathogenic belief and when people feel safer they can lower their defenses and get in touch with important salient painful aspects of their experience and their history in short we think that people can do more psychological work when they feel safe and so when therapists are behaving in ways that are planned compatible and that are facilitating safety and passing tests then we should see these kinds of responses from patients patients should feel more relaxed or they should become more insightful they should they should reveal new material or deepen their exploration so let's see what happens open but I I want to blame it on here I think I'm more open than hit allow me me would never listen to me talk like you are and not disapproved or not lower me down it's yeah I thought of this the other day why do I always have to be so perfect I know why he always wanted me to be perfect I always have to be better and yeah I miss that you're just trying like he'll be the girl he wants you to be yet the same time rebelling like I almost floated writing him a letter the other day and telling him I'm a waitress which I expect him to disapprove of I go out at night and I I almost floated hitting him back like now how do you like me and yet I really want acceptance and love come here I mean I know we love so you slap at him and say this is what I am now see yeah you raised me how do you like it but you know what I think I want him to say I know this was you all along honey and I really love you okay so so I mean I would take that as confirmation that Rogers was going in the right direction that he responded to her test in a way this compatible with her plan because she opened up more she talked more about the trauma that gave rise to all of the self-accusation and self-blame she could never really feel accepted by her own father she then went on to talk about you know this sort of like reaction that she had to him and and the kind of she likes to she'd like to kind of get back at him the sort of like less pleasant more threatening aspect of her personality that a lot of people would probably want to keep under wraps a little bit more especially if you struggle with self-blame and self-accusation and she's revealing more of it to him so I think this indicates that Rogers has facilitated some safety here through his intervention both by passing his test by passing glorious test and by behaving in a way and advancing an attitude that's really compatible with with glorious plan I think one of the things that's nice about watching this video and talking about this stuff is that you know Rogers is pretty overtly not analytic or dynamic yeah and that you can see this you know the coaching and the testing is just so clear right in this video so you can see the sort of how it would cut across approaches and in a way this you know sort of the person centered style actually kind of aligns pretty well with being able to use it as an example of how this can work absolutely and some of the early research that was done to try to test these these ideas of of control mastery theory was done on while it was done on therapies where the therapists didn't know about the theory one one's a single case study was of the first 100 hours of a recorded cyclanolitic treatment and I think throughout that throughout that early part of the treatment there wasn't a lot of cyclanolitic interpretation as more like clarifying comments and it was sort of like managing the whole you know this whole setup of the therapy and everything but but the the the research showed that as the therapist behaved in ways that were compatible with the patient's plan the patient showed immediate signs of progress so I think it's great to look at therapies like like this one with roaches but you could you could look at any therapy and we think that you could apply the principles of control mastery theory to explain how the therapy either works or doesn't work and that's what I think is the great power of the theory. So I want to get you out of here on if there are any and I didn't prep you on this but if there are any particular resources that you would point listeners who are interested in this approach to go to and so but before that is there anything else that you feel like you want to hit? I feel like we've covered a lot of territory I could I could I hope that I've given the impression that I could talk about this stuff all day I'm really enthusiastic about the theory and it's an elegant theory there aren't a lot of concepts within the theory but I think when you apply it in you know to real world situations you see just how more complex it is there is a lot of complexity there but I do like that the theory strives for parsimony rather than you know we try not to have too many jargonistic terms that come from it so there are any particular resources and if you can't think of anything right now you can just let me know and I'll put them in the show notes. I can yeah I can let you know I mean one of the exciting things about the theory is that since its inception it's been the subject of empirical investigation that and that's not to say you know like comparing therapies that are done by a CMT perspective with other treatments it's because we think of it as as a framework for understanding how therapy works the the research has often been on single case studies in the process research small samples but there is empirical backing for the notion that people are testing their pathogenic beliefs and when therapists pass those tests patients make progress I would point people to a lot of the work from the San Francisco Psychotherapy research group SFPRG.org there's a website people could go to that's where the theory develops you know I think over 40 years ago and there's been so much research on the theory since then also there's an Italian group led by Francesco Gazila at Sapienza University in Rome and he's written a number of recent papers elaborating the theory theory is very much an organic theory that that we think is still developing some great books to check out would one would be How Psychotherapy Works by Joseph Weiss it's from 1993 and a book that was published in 2005 by George Silver Sharts calls Transformative Relationships. With relationships? No sorry transformative relationships. Great I will look those up and I will link them in the show notes. Okay this is wonderful day if I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. It's been a great pleasure now. That's a wrap on our conversation as I noted at the top of the show be much appreciated if you spread the word to anyone else who you think might enjoy it. Until next time you[music][BLANK_AUDIO]